Advice

[K9-1]

Hello all, I am looking for some airplane buying advice. I am looking for a good, solid, easy to maintain four person plane. A real four person plane. I plan on only doing this once and I don't want to run into a mechanical nightmare. I really like the Cherokee 180, but I am not 100% decided.

[Gimble]

How big are these persons? How far are you going? And at what altitudes?

A Piper Cherokee / Cessna 172 are both unexciting, but simple and well-designed airframes. However, putting four adults -- particularly four large adults -- in either can put a squeeze on either plane, sometimes on weight, and usually in weight.

I fly a cessna Cardinal ( C177 ), and though it has space for four adults (e.g. a "real" back seat) if I put four 200 lb people in it, I'll have about 120 lbs left for fuel and bags. Which means a little more than 2 hours of fuel without reserves, probably an hour and a half with VFR reserves. And no bags.

You'll find other four-place 180hp airframes will likely have similar (if not even more onerous) restrictions on weight: and they have less leg room etc. that the Cardinal.

On the other hand, if you want 2 adults + 2 kids, there's a lot of four-seaters out there that can fit your mission without being excessively complicated or breaking your budget.

[Dantilla]

One of the best "does everything well" airplanes is the Cessna 182/Skylane. They can haul a pretty big load out of small strips, and do it with respectable speed. The 182 also have a well-deserved reputation for durability.

Lots of choices out there for you to consider.....

[K9-1]

Thank you for the feedback.

This will be a family plane, with the wife and two kids on board. Kids are 5 & 6 years old, and all other possible passengers are mostly under 200lbs. As far as distances, I plan on flying up and down the east coast states. Moslty VFR flying with altitudes of 8,500 or lower.

[Instrumental]

Thank you for the feedback.

This will be a family plane, with the wife and two kids on board. Kids are 5 & 6 years old, and all other possible passengers are mostly under 200lbs. As far as distances, I plan on flying up and down the east coast states. Moslty VFR flying with altitudes of 8,500 or lower.

I agree with others about a "real" 4 person plane, there's almost always the weight ceiling to deal with. The Cherokee 180 has almost the same weight-carrying ability as the older 172's (no kidding), with a 1960 172 tare/gross at 1300/2200 and the Cherokee at 1300/2150. As mentioned, the Cessna 182 at 1800/3100 is a sizable step up but of course, there's the 230 HP to feed, but for about the same investment you get the constant velocity prop.

I've seen Cherokee 6's sell for prices competitive to the 182's but the 6 has a 1850/3400 spread with equals an impressive 1550 useable #'s compared to 1300# on the 182. That said, I'd still want the 182 if I was anywhere near grass strips and mountainous terrain.

[K9-1]

A Cherokee 6/300 would be wonderful, but on my police salary.....Not likely, but a man can dream...Thank you for the feedback.

[Instrumental]

A Cherokee 6/300 would be wonderful, but on my police salary.....Not likely, but a man can dream...Thank you for the feedback.

You bet, every person has to set limits, but I just went over to tradeaplane and compared year-for-year, and the 182' and Cherokee 6's might surprise you:

1964 PIPER PA-28-235 Cherokee 235. TTAF 2512, SMOH 484. Nav.Coms with VOR/LOC/GS, DME, ADF, $44,000.

1965 SKYLANE 182H, 1064 SMOH, 4054-TT, STOL tips, fresh annual, always hangared, IFR, good paint & upholstery, asking $49,000

Note that the Piper has a younger airframe and engine, yet the price is fairly close. I'm a Cessna fan, but I have flown Pipers and enjoyed them. I hope you do get to realize your dream, no matter what you fly!

[Gimble]

This will be a family plane, with the wife and two kids on board. Kids are 5 & 6 years old, and all other possible passengers are mostly under 200lbs. As far as distances, I plan on flying up and down the east coast states. Moslty VFR flying with altitudes of 8,500 or lower.

So, assuming two 200 lb adults, two 100 lb kids (they're not there now, but they will be!), and 100 lbs of baggage you'd like something with 700 lbs useful if you have 3+ hours fuel ( assuming bladders drive a 3-hour stop ).

I'm going to guess in the 20-50k range, based on earlier comments about the Cherokee 6. You also seem to want an uncomplicated, nearly bulletproof (mechanically, not literally) airplane that can get you around affordably.

My first thought (since I trained in one) is an early 172 (1956-1964ish, with the 'E' model being my plane of choice). I trained in an '61 172A model, and they fly nice, rather uncomplicated, and good useful load ( ~900 lbs. ). They're typically affordable (low 20s) and if you can get one with an engine in good shape, it will carry you just as well (or better) than a late-model 172, just at a lot less money.

The downside on the early 172s ( < 1968, up through the 'H' model ) is they use a Continental 6-cyl engine (that and their usually weird panel layout, since the six-pack hadn't been standardized on yet). The engine is really smooth and runs well, but the extra cylinders mean some extra expense come overhaul time. If you want more details about the early 172s I'll be happy to bore you to death with my thoughts and preferences on the early ones.

That being said, the current market has Pipers selling at a significant discount to Cessnas of similar size and HP. If you're willing and able to sort through them, looking for a plane in great mechanical shape, you'll likely be able to get a better plane at a better price than a similar Cessna.

Down on the E coast I wouldn't be as concerned with HP (you aren't dealing with the Rockies) as long as it is reasonable, but useful load will be important, as will space inside the cockpit for the family.

I can't help but recommend the Cessna Cardinal if you have the initial money to get them, as they are (IMO) bigger inside than a 172, handle better, cost no more to operate or maintain, and are better looking to boot. However, to get into a 180hp Cardinal you're probably talking 40+. (As a Cardinal owner, I am rather biased on this point.)

Another choice that is probably affordable, but may be a bit more on maintenance, would be the Beech (Super) Musketeer. Slow, but roomy inside, and has a vocal fan base.

If you wanted to go retractable, right now there seems to be some really good deals on the Piper Comanche, and the plane typically has good reviews. However, retractable and bulletproof don't always go hand-in-hand.

[K9-1]

Thank you for the advice on the Cardinal. I went and saw one locally and I really liked the look and size. With your comments and speaking with this pilot, it seems that the Cardinal would more than meet my needs. I have started searching for an affordable one and I have found one that is more than affordable. However, this Cardinal is only a 150hp, which gives me another question for you.

Would it be a good idea to buy this Cardinal with the 150hp and then do an hp upgrade during overhaul? Would this be cost effective, or would it just be better to keep saving and buy one right. Thank you for your guidance.

[K9-1]

Thanks for the advice on the cardinal. I got to see one local and really like the look and size. With your comments and speaking with this pilot, it seems that the Cardinal will more than meet my needs. I have started surfing the market and found one well inside my budget. However, this particular one is only a 150hp, which leads me to a new question.

Would it be ok to buy the 150hp and then do an hp upgrade at overhaul? Would this be cost effective, or would it be better just to continue saving and buy one that is right?

[apogee]

Thanks for the advice on the cardinal. ..... the Cardinal will more than meet my needs. I have started surfing the market and found one well inside my budget. .......is only a 150hp, which leads me to a new question.
Would it be ok to buy the 150hp and then do an hp upgrade at overhaul? Would this be cost effective, or would it be better just to continue saving and buy one that is right?

In my humble opinion 177's are nice but they need all 200hp. Then they have their drawbacks as well as their merits as do most aircraft.
I don't think a high wing under horsepowered A/C is the way to go. Your a cop on a budget, right? Okay, what you need is a strong airframe, good looks so you can be proud of your steed, reliability because you plan on carrying precious cargo, reasonable upkeep because you are a public servant, and of course payload, range, and not too get upgradeitis as you become accustomed to your purchase. My suggestion is: drumroll please..................^^
A PA24-260 1965 or later. Very inexpensive, beautiful, 1100sm range, and the most dependable engine in general aviation.......Once you fly a Comanche you will know what all of the rest of the Comanche drivers have known for years. This is a well backed A/C that has a reliable parts source and one heck of a following. Check out the International Comanche Society (ICS). I have recently seen midtime airplanes cheap, dirt cheap, and they are pretty darn fast too....
If you want to go with the same performance you could aim at a F33A, just be prepared to come up with a bunch more moolah, and be really prepared for the cost of ownership.
I like 182's. They are like flying 1/2 ton pick up trucks. I have just done all of what you are going through already........Comanche was my choice, I am a poor public servant too................

PS. steam gauges are fine, don't get caught up in the tech, just make sure what ever you get has a good functioning autopilot, altitude hold, even better. All the "glass" you need is a Garmin AERA 560 and a subscription if you want to be over the top...............

[K9-1]

Very good suggestion on the Comanche, thanks. I only have one problem and that is affordability. I have found a couple 180's inside my budget and one 250 that is in reach. Don't know if I am looking in the wrong places, or what. They all seem to start around 49,900 (not many to choose from at that price) and rocket up from there, putting them out of my reach.

Still, I am going to drop in at our local airport and try to check one out.

[Instrumental]

Very good suggestion on the Comanche, thanks. I only have one problem and that is affordability. I have found a couple 180's inside my budget and one 250 that is in reach. Don't know if I am looking in the wrong places, or what. They all seem to start around 49,900 (not many to choose from at that price) and rocket up from there, putting them out of my reach.

Still, I am going to drop in at our local airport and try to check one out.

Good luck with your adventure, it's quite a bit of mental juggling to make a decision, isn't it? I think you'll find the market pretty saturated with 172's & Cherokees so now may be the best time to purchase. Two things come to mind when evaluating a plane; purchase a title search (about 80 bucks) and if you get serious, find a respectable A&P and pay him to do a thorough prebuy, including a review of all AD's (mandatory airworthiness directives). I recently helped a friend make a purchase and the prebuy was $300 but the A&P was thorough and found flaws that were negotiated against the price. I thought it was money well spent.

[Pilotb59]

I owned a 67 Cherokee 235B, 4 - 200lb adults and room for them, 40 pounds of luggage and 84 gals(full fuel). A pick truck for sure.... and low wing very stable performer!!! 135 kots or so, so not the fastest, but very good and easy on the budget.

[Gimble]

Would it be ok to buy the 150hp and then do an hp upgrade at overhaul? Would this be cost effective, or would it be better just to continue saving and buy one that is right?

As a Cardinal owner, I've seen a great number of opinions. I have a friend based at 00V (near Colorado Springs, elevation 6800) who flies a 150hp with the PowerFlow exhaust, and he's reasonably happy with it. Granted, he only flies two persons most of the time.

If you believe a 180hp engine is mandatory, then do not buy with the expectation to upgrade the engine: it's a big money loser by the time you pay for the STC and the appropriate work to get it done.

If I were buying a Cardinal today, I would buy a 177B (1970+), as all of them come with 180hp engines and the constant speed prop. The CS prop isn't hard to learn to use (assuming you don't use one today), and helps with fuel/power efficiency in the air.

The other thing I would do is to join Cardinal Flyers Online Home Page , and also join their mailing list. They have a *huge* amount of data in articles and through their "Digest" (an archive of their mailing list going back to when the wheel was invented) that is largely Cardinal-specific (including some great pre-buy worksheets), with some great information. It's $34 / year, but if you're not willing to spend $34 to investigate the Cardinal, you shouldn't get one.

I am speaking from experience: I joined CFO two months before I found and bought my own. If nothing else, they were able to help me find a mechanic with Cardinal experience to do my pre-buy / annual, and also another Cardinal pilot offered on his own nickle to fly out and help me ferry my bird home when I finally bought mine.

(Also, check the CFO for sale listings, as they always have some planes there).

Disclaimer: I'm finalizing the sale of my Cardinal and purchase of a Cherokee 6. I love my plane and am sad to give her up, but my family now has six, and I need more seats. Still, I think they're a great set of compromises (good space, decent range, and liveable useable load without significant maintenance costs) and worth looking into for anybody on a 172-like budget but wants a bit more comfort.