Faa Emergency order of Revocation
Has any one else had an (emergency order of revocation ) happen to them. I won in court and now the faa is appealing. It like double jeoperty.
Wow, I regret hearing this is happening to you. If you won in court, which court do you mean, exactly? I follow a lot of these cases and are you using the term "court" to mean your first hearing with the NTSB? If so, the feds will have to introduce either 1) new evidence or 2) a claim that the first hearing was severely biased. From my studies, the NTSB is not so keen on being scrutinized, especially if the case stinks of some jerk inspector hell bent on ruining some pilot's life. I wish you the best of luck.
what was the reason for the emergency order?
As a Former FAA Inspector, I can openly talk about what happens on the inside of the FAA. An emergency order of revocation is very serious and the FAA Inspector writes up the case with supporting documents. The inspector submits it to the Regional FAA legal office for review and acceptance before a case is ever submitted to the NTSB for hearing. It is the FAA legal office the submitts for revocation based on supporting documents.
From what you posted you must of won the NTSB hearing, however the FAA same as the plaintiff has a right to appeal the judges decision to the next higher level with the court of appeals. I assume this is what they have done.
As a side note bashing FAA Inspector as a whole is not a good thing. Some are good people trying to make a difference in safety, sadly other are A-holes, there is a difference. I have worked with both types and they are in every industry. The last thing any FAA Inspector wants to do is write an enforcement. Its a lot of work and takes a lot of effort to put a package together for any enforcement case. However, keep in mind the FAA would not of gone forward if they did not have a case as it cost money. My experience has been the FAA will not go forward with any case unless they know they will win. If the FAA loses a case they have to pay and that is another reason they only take cases they will win hands down.
Anyhow that is my two cents worth, good luck.
Emergency order of revocation
Originally Posted by Instrumental
I am very new to this, I will try to give you all the details.
The hearing was heard in Charlotte NC court house by Judge Alfonso Montano acting chief administrative law judge. I appealed the administrator's emergency order of revocation dated October 6, 2011. I was charged with violating section 43.12 (a) (1) of the FAR's.
I performed a 100 hour inspection and sign off a 100 hour inspection on a Hughes 269 B helicopter. A friend of mine sign off the annual inspection on my 100 hour inspection. (The friend was revocated for 9 monthes he could not aford to fight the order ) I could not find in the far's where I had did anything wrong so I wanted to appeal the faa .
The first court date I could get was March 20, 2012. I could not work during this time. The hearing took two days, the complainant did not bring any evidence to prove I intended to or knew I was violating section 43.12 (a) (1). As a matter of fact the FAA investgater Randy Stromski was not in court he was out of work for a personal reason. When the judge investagted because the FAA attorney Briana Martino Esq was vage He said in court he was suspended for something to do with he A&P not being in order. ( I found Randy Stromski to be fair to deal with )
As I bsaid Judge Montano rule in my favor, 10 days later the FAA called my attorney saying they would appeal, basd on the Judge not know the diffrence between an A&P and a A&P with a IA. or the diffrence in a 100 hour inspection and a annual inspection. A week later the FAA in Washington DC took the case from the Great Lake Region. I am a few days from the dead line for the FAA to have there appeal in,. They would not return my A&P so I could work. to date I am out 30,400.00 dollars in attorney fees. 7 months with out income. In fact the person helicopter I work on has not paied me.
The FAA has proved one thing to me. NEVER talk to them. Use an attorney. I dont think I would have been revocated The attorney twisted my words, I hope the NTSB is fast and fair. I am broke I can not afford to pay my attorney to write the appeal and you can see by the way I write I can not do it. I may lose my home my dream and everything I own and still will not be guilty of doing any thing wrong. The FAA has to much power. If i sue them I could get 1/3 of my lawyer bill they pay 175.00 dollars an hour for an attorney. nothing for lost wages nothing for the stress they have put me under. I may never recover from this. I was not a rich man when this happend.
I wish they understood how they kill a mans dreams. I dont think they ever miss a min. sleep.
I am sure there are good people at the FAA and NTSB but you never know what your getting when you talk to them so never do it.
Wild Wolf Helicopters LLC
Far part 43.12 (a)(1) see below
Originally Posted by AZROB
As I mentioned I am a former FAA inspector and have been involved in several NTSB cases in my career. I read what you stated about an IA signing off the annual after you performed a 100-hour inspection. The only difference in the 100-hour and annual inspection is the rating used to sign it off.
100-hour inspection required Airframe and Powerplant (A&P) rating
Annual inspection Inspection Authorization (IA) authorization
The last person who performed the inspection using their signature and rating/authorization is responsible for previous inspections. If the IA used your 100-hour inspection as grounds to sign off the annual they were certainly wrong. However, their inspection should have cleared your inspection.
You cited CFR 43.13(a)(1) which part did they say you did not follow. Part 43.13 is a catch all for maintenance violations, but the FAA should of called out what you did wrong like now follow techniques or procedures in the manual or have the required tooling/equipment to perform the maintenance task or inspections. I am familiar with the requirements of the helicopter so what was the inspection program the helicopter was being maintained under. It doesn’t sound like the manufactures hourly program if an 100-hour and annual inspection was being performed.
I cover this in my second book “Gray Matter” just published, the inspection program is very important and the mechanic will always get hung out if the inspection program is not clearly stated in the airframe records per part 91.
I am not a lawyer, but I do now FAA enforcement procedures and CFRs pretty good. I also know when to talk to an FAA lawyer and when not to and what you could or should say. This could be a book by itself and I may consider it in the future.
Their was nothing in the inspection they had a problem with it was the fact that the IA did not do the annual himself completely. The Southbend region said the IA had to do ALL the inspection he could not have help. In this case I did do all the inspection I followed the manufactor manual. I signed off the work I did. The IA did the AD research and the paper work I did the hands on work. I can not find in the far's where I did anything wrong. ( I did not sign off anything that I did not do. ) so far noone has shown me.
I am sorry if this is hard to read I am using my phone to enter the info.
Okay, I have heard of this sort of enforcement.
Basically, the IA is in trouble for signing an annual for which they did not personally inspect the aircraft, but by signing, indicated an inspection was performed... by them. That makes sense, the IA claimed to have inspected something and did not.
Here's the part I don't get:
You are an A&P, and you performed a 100 hour inspection. That is allowed. From what you write here, I do not see that you forged an annual inspection, you had the IA sign off on the annual. I would bet that the FAA attorneys tried to make it VERY clear, that an IA is required to sign off an annual. So... the judge heard all that and concluded in your favor, because you never did anything beyond your ratings. As Denny mentioned, they'd have to show that your practices were "unacceptable to the administrator"... which is long-hand for "our way".
So what do they now have for a case against you? In what way are you in violation of the regulations? Even if they get a new hearing, can they show anything more than in the first hearing?
This you should know:
There is a way to get your money back:
Equal Access to Justice Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are some deadlines involved, but with the appeal, you may still be able to file, once you win. Basically, the EAJA allows for the recovery of financial damages that you suffered from the feds taking you into court, and in some cases, defendants have gotten some sizable awards. There are some tricky parts to the EAJA, but your attorney should be interested, if nothing else but by greed, to file it.
Unless you did something other than perform a proper 100 hour inspection, which is allowed by your rating as an A&P, it looks like you are being targeted by over-zealous inspectors. A shame.
What they tried to prove is what you said " I had an IA sign off an annual" what they told my lawyer was that the judge didn't
know the diffrence between an IA and a A&P is there reason for the apeal. That was from the Great Lakes region before it waa taken by the DC region. I personaly think it is their way to get me as much punishment as they can. They could have return my A&P during the time of the apeal. Tomorrow, no it today now, is the 50th day the time the judge gave to have the appeal filed. I am hoping to see somthing today, but it is the FAA and they change the rules as they wish.
As for the ERJA it only pays 175 dollars an hour for attorney fees. if was a true civil court I could sue for damages this is crimal court when they can emprison me for working, fine me if I did mail my A&P in. The FAA gets to appeal like a civil court to me it is double jeoperty
In cases like yours from what I have read, the FAA has gone after everyone hoping you will turn on each other in court. I have seen this happen, I never like the idea of this tactic, but it works. As stated by Instrumental the cards are on the table, the case facts have to remain the same at this point, so the FAA is saying the judge errored.
Okay, here is the bottom line the IA is at fault from what I have read. Any inspection is only good as long as the ink is wet, keep that in mind. The IA signed after you did, that is his fault and was more than likely sited for not performing the inspection as required. Again that has nothing has to do with your inspection and I am sure the judge saw the same thing.
Here is what is more than likely what is going on at the FAA regional office. They have put a lot of time and money into your case. If they fail to prove and win and your lawyer submits for costs, the FAA has to pay your legal fees. I can tell you right now the FAA does not want to pay your legal fees and any other fee’s you may want to claim. In addition, the FAA could be held liable for the helicopter being out of service costing thousands of dollars. That would be the owners action not yours.
Therefore, the way it works once the FAA loses in district court, which it appears they have in your case. The action from the FAA is turns over the case over to the Department of Justice to take it to the next court I believe the Circuit Court of Appeals. At this level, the federal government may just want to cut a deal, but I do not think that will happen since you have a big legal bill they do not want to pay for. Bottom line is if the government loses and it looks like it from the information you have provided they will have to pay your legal bills.
Just one last thing does your attorney know you have posted your case on the web? You may want to discuss this with them before posting anything else.
This is one man’s opinion.
My attorney does know, I am writing my congressmen & Sentators, and telling any one that will listen to me. I want the laws changed. I will advocate for this for the rest of my life. Punishment before found guilty in any thing is wrong. It send the wrong message to airman and mechanic alike. Trust and openness should be the rule not " you need to speak to my attorney"
Originally Posted by Denny of Oakland
wild Wolf Helicopter LLC
Keep all this quiet. I think you have a great chance at getting beyond this. Hang in there.
I got the apeal today it is 30 pages long, at 550 dollars an hour for an attorney i guess i am done I can not pay that much money. The FAA wins not because they are right only because they have little or no risk and none of their personal money. This has clean me and my retirement out.
Originally Posted by Instrumental
thanks for all the help, but I really dont know what else to do
Working for the agency for all the years I did I learned the FAA will go after an A&P or IA knowing they don’t have the big bucks to fight them and give in. This is just wrong as can be, that the so-called rich can fight and win the FAA even if they are wrong.
I really think your situation could have been avoided early on between you and the FAA inspector if you knew what to say and when not to say something. The FAA has a policy of keeping things at the lowest level airman and inspector if possible. Inspectors have a lot of power and some do not know how to use it.
I have worked on both sides of the fence, I know about running a FBO, had one and I know what it is like up against government been there as well. As a FAA inspector I always believed my job was to keep people out of trouble, not burn them for making a mistake.
We have all made mistakes that is how we learn, but you may have been drawn in a bit by the inspector and said more than you really should just being honest. I have had this happen to me many times as an inspector that airmen were afraid of me because I represented the government and told me everything. I never like being the “MAN” and told people just call me by my first name.
I really feel bad about your situation and wish I could help I am really considering writing a third book on this subject. It’s just wrong and it really upsets me the FAA has to destroy people to put a notch on their belt in court cases.
Do you have the docket number for you case and could you send it to me in the personnel response section on the board or go to my web site there is a hyper link to me there at Welcome to StacheAir
Just one man’s opinion