Logging SIC time

[kswat1]

For the past three months, I have been flying the KingAir C90B and Turbo Commander for a state government transportation agency. Neither aircraft requires a two-man crew, and we fly under FAR part 91, also not requiring two up front. However, the agency itself requires a two-man crew while conducting all flight operations. My question....may I log SIC for the flight time that I am not acting as PIC in these aircraft?

In order to log second-in-command flight time, the SIC must be a required flight crewmember by regulation or type certification. Required by the company, insurance carrier, customer, PIC, etc. does NOT count.

If you are the sole manipulator of the controls, then you can log PIC time. Otherwise, you won't be able to log any time.

[This message has been edited by scottd (edited 07-19-2001).]

[leardvr]

It's also importent to remember that in order to log PIC time in complex/high performance aircraft that complex and high perfomance sign offs are required; I would assume that this is not a problem. One more sign off is also required, high altitude.

[gkloster7]

I disagree with scotd about when you can log SIC time. If a SIC is required by an agency this is all loggable time. Any time spent as sole manipulator can be logged as PIC. See link below for interesting article.
http://www.airapps.com/articles/01_feb/airnet.html

see bottom in blue re: time building

[This message has been edited by gkloster7 (edited 09-06-2001).]

[leardvr]

In responce to gkloster7 comment. I worked for AirNet for years (and loved it); in the article it is importent to remember that Airnet is a Part 135 company. Under it's agency (the FAA) part 135 type certificate a co-pilot MAY be assigned to prop aircraft
(Airnet opperates Baron's, Navajoe's, Aerostar's, and 310's) none of these aircraft are turbo props or turbo jets; Airnet is also all cargo (no passenger opperations ie. no auto pilot sign offs under 135 for passenger carrying). The program was set up so that a pilot with little experence could start building time; logging PIC only when the aircraft is empty and can be opperated under part 91 rules. In that case only PIC can be logged because two pilots are not required part 91. (Craig Washka was a little misquoted).

The only SIC that are required at Airnet are in the Lear jets; but that's a turbo jet aircraft.

Airnet is a fantastic company to build experence with, not only flight time but also real world flying experence. They are not an airline; you fly 4 nights a week in all type of weather all year round. In the 2 years I worked there I canceled a flight ONCE. It was never dangerous, but airline don't like flying in weather fright dogs do.

[This message has been edited by leardvr (edited 09-10-2001).]

gkloster7,

Despite what you read in the airapps.com site, you can only log SIC time when it is required by *regulations* or by type certification of the aircraft (as I said above). There are cases in the regulations (part 135 for example) where an SIC is required and can log SIC time.

Here's a legal interpretation of the regs that discusses this very issue. Sorry for the length. BTW, some of the references to the FARs may be incorrect due to the fact that this letter is from 1992. But it still is a valid and legal interpretation.

March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division



[This message has been edited by scottd (edited 09-10-2001).]

leardvr,

In an earlier post you mentioned that "It's also importent to remember that in order to log PIC time in complex/high performance aircraft that complex and high perfomance sign offs are required; I would assume that this is not a problem. One more sign off is also required, high altitude."

The endorsement is not required in order to *log* PIC time in high performance aircraft. You cannot ACT as PIC in a high performance aircraft without the high performance endorsement. (Same holds true for complex, tailwheel and pressurized aircraft above 25,000 ft.)

A pilot may log PIC flight time under the provisions of FAR 61.51(e):

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person -

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

The key here is "an aircraft for which a pilot is rated." If I'm flying as the sole manipulator of a Piper Arrow IV (complex single-engine land airplane) and have a ASEL certificate, I can log the time as PIC. An endorsement is NOT a rating and therefore I can log it under FAR 61.51(e). Many instructors have a poor understanding of this regulation.

[leardvr]

Let me try to understand; are all of you trying to tell kswat1 that it is OK to log his SIC time? Under part 91? In aircraft that only require one pilot! The only "agency" that matters is the FAA. And under Part 91 they say NO.

If you are, I wouldn't want to try to explain that at any interviews.

Buy the way, how do you guys differentiate between PIC in your logbooks, if you log acting PIC and being PIC as two different things (by the way I agree they are, but would NEVER recommend that a student of mine do it). I think we can agree that the letter of the law and the intent of the law are two different things.

In the mean time Pray for today’s victims

God Bless


[This message has been edited by leardvr (edited 09-11-2001).]

leardvr,

"Let me try to understand; are all of you trying to tell kswat1 that it is OK to log his SIC time? Under part 91? In aircraft that only require one pilot!"

Absolutely not! The rules are clear. There are regulations under part 91, 135, etc. that permit a pilot to log SIC time (for example, being a safety pilot in a single-engine aircraft is a case where part 91 allows logging of SIC for the pilot not flying). As I mentioned before, you can log SIC if required by type certification or by regulation for which the flight was conducted. You insurance carrier, company, etc., can mandate a second pilot, but the second pilot can't log it simply because the these folks want a second pilot.

The only "agency" that matters is the FAA. And under Part 91 they say NO.
If you are, I wouldn't want to try to explain that at any interviews.

Not true. There are distinct circumstances where a pilot can log SIC or PIC time (without ever touching the controls) under part 91, 135, and 121. No need to explain to the FAA, they already know the answer.

"Buy the way, how do you guys differentiate between PIC in your logbooks, if you log acting PIC and being PIC as two different things (by the way I agree they are, but would NEVER recommend that a student of mine do it). I think we can agree that the letter of the law and the intent of the law are two different things."

You never LOG PIC simply because you ACT as PIC. There are situations where you can act as PIC and are NOT able to log PIC (or SIC). These two concepts are completely different and are dealt with differently in the regulations.

"In the mean time Pray for today’s victims."

Yes, I couldn't have said it better!

Here's some additional information...

ACTING as PIC...

The pilot who "acts" as PIC is responsible for the safety of the flight, and meets the FAR 1.1 definition of PIC:

"Pilot in command" means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

This definition used to be: "'Pilot in command' means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time."


The "acting" PIC is described in FAR 91.3(a) as:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

In an air carrier operation (121/135), this is the Captain. This pilot must (except in some small airplanes with 9 or fewer passenger seats operated under FAR 135) hold an ATP certificate, with the appropriate type rating. The type rating becomes required as a result the aircraft's size or powerplants, or when otherwise required by the Administrator.

In a FAR 91 operation, the pilot in command is determined by the parties involved. The PIC does not need to sit in the left seat (airplane) unless the AFM requires it. The PIC does need to occupy a crewmember station (ref FAR 91.105). This pilot is acting as PIC whether the pilot actually does any flying or not.

The right-seat pilot of a small trainer may simultaneously be the PIC and the "safety pilot" for a FAR 91 instrument training flight. Since safety pilots are required flight crewmembers, under FAR 91.109(b), the flight requires two pilots, and this PIC is now acting as PIC of an aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

A student pilot on a solo flight is acting as PIC.

There is only one pilot who is acting as PIC of a flight. But as we shall see, that pilot may or may not be allowed to log PIC flight time.

LOGGING PIC...

A pilot may log PIC flight time under the provisions of FAR 61.51(e):

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person -

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot -

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii)Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under § 61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.


NOTE: A pilot (not a student pilot) may log PIC when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft. There is no requirement to be rated in the category and class of the aircraft in question, you just have to be the sole occupant. Of course, if not rated, you had to have an endorsement from an authorized instructor allowing you to fly that aircraft in solo flight. This has always been the FAA's policy on this matter.


In addition, the old rule allowed an ATP to log all time during which he/she acted as PIC. The new rule restricts the ATP privilege of logging time while merely acting as PIC to those operations that require the ATP certificate (FAR 121 operations, FAR 135 turbojet ops, FAR 135 ops in aircraft with 10 or more passenger seats, FAR 135 “commuter” ops in multiengine airplanes, and scheduled FAR 135 interstate helicopter ops). FYI, a FAR 135 “commuter” operation in an airplane means a scheduled (5 round-trip flights or more per week) operation in an airplane that is NOT a turbojet, and that has 9 or fewer seats, and a payload of 7500 lbs. or less. Remember that the ATP has the privileges of a commercial pilot as well, so the other rules also apply.

NOTE: The new rule (FAR 61.51(e)(4)) allows the student pilot (when solo) to log PIC time. As discussed above, FAA policy has always allowed a pilot (other than a student pilot) to log PIC when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft (whether or not he is rated). But, this privilege was not extended to a student pilot under the old rule, and a student pilot was restricted to logging only "solo" time, even though the student pilot was acting as PIC when flying solo. With the advent of the new rule, as of 8/4/97, student pilots on solo flights may log PIC flight time.

LOGGING SIC...

FAR 61.51(f) allows the second-in-command to log flight time as second in command (SIC) as follows:

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

In order to log second-in-command flight time, the SIC must be a required flight crewmember by regulation or type certification. Required by the company, insurance carrier, customer, PIC, etc. does not count.

[gkloster7]

I was speaking to part 135 and not part 91. My apologies for skimming.

I would still maintain that you could effectively log SIC under part 135 providing you are a required crewmember...though upon further review this may indeed be a bit too gray to rely on.

Good work Scottd.

Thanks. And you are correct. It is not gray at all. I'll just reiterate the legal interpretation (above) that indeed shows you can log SIC under part 135.

"Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot. "

That doesn't give you free will to log all possible cases, just those that apply and I know that is sometimes hard to figure out.