What's Wrong With GA?

[MarkManB]

I have seen some articles about how general aviation is having trouble and the number of pilots keeps going down. Some say it's because the aviation community is not welcoming enough. Others say it is because the FBO's where people learn to fly are not professional enough. I think a lot of it has to do with the typical GA airplane. Let's face it, a Cessna 152 with 10,000 hours is not the most plesant ride in the world. It's noisy and cramped, and it's no wonder people don't wan to fly those things.

What does everybody else think?

-Mark

[jlowers]

The major problem is that flying is expensive. That C-150 that you training with is probably costing you between $35 and $50 per hour. Add to that the CFI who is probably woefully underpaid at $25 per hour and you are talking about approximately $65 per hour for lessons. Multiply that by the 60 to 70 or so hours needed to acquire a license and you are talking about a serious amount of cash.

I think that the costs involved with flying are responsible in creating the image that it is something that is simply out of the grasp of the average person. In order to increase the number of pilots, it is first necessary to increase the pool of people that would potentially become pilots. In order to do this, it is probably more necessary to sell the idea of flying, rather than that of becoming a certificated pilot.

An FBO might attract more customers if it advertised itself as something more than a flying school/aircraft rental. Most people are simply not interested in spending their money on flight training. Rather, emphasize sightseeing tours, informal charter flights to places like Catalina Island. Instead of using rattletrap C-152s why not larger and more comfortable aircraft. Instead of emphasizing lessons, why not sell joyrides in a Stearman? Once the public learns that flying need not be an arduous long term expense, more people might be willing to climb the ladder toward certification.

[jason]

I am in the middle of trying to complete my training for a private pilot certificate and two things come to mind. First is the money involved. Let's face it, completing all the training you need to become a pilot is not cheap by most people's standards.

The second and more frustrating problem I see is the lack of profesionalism among many FBO/Flight Schools. The FBO likely has several flight instructors who have their own way of teaching things with no standardization between instructors at the same FBO. Most of these instructors have horrible schedules and when they make it to a lesson exactly on time, they are doing good. At the FBO where I take lessons I have actually watched another instructor with student taxi off in the airplane I reserved. You see, that other instructor needed to "steal" the plane that was supposed to be reserved for me and my instructor so he could make a few extra bucks -- this happened to me twice with two different (airplane theif) instructors!

[Jeff]

Mark: There are schools out there that have old, however very well maintained and flyable aicraft. I would submit to you the places trying to "lure in new students" with old tired airplanes are not doing well as a business. It is up to the buyer to realize ther is more than one place to learn to fly.
jlowers: Money is a big concern to most pilots in training but you must consider the many thousands of us who found and are finding the money to do it. I recently had a conversation on a layover with the young man behind the bar and found he was working three jobs just to pay for his training.He was obviously sacrificing his social life for the time being as well, but he knew it was only temporary and had his goal of becoming an airline pilot clearly in sight. Not everyone trains to fly in the majors, but a careful study of any lifestyle will yield areas were spending might be reallocated to more flying lessons, or to make the ones scheduled a little easier to afford. As for sightseeing and charter, you open your business up to mandatory drug and alcohol testing, FAR p135, and certificate (as in airline, not pilot) requirements, which many FBOs/schools do not want to deal with.
jason: As hard as it may be to switch, you need to find a new place to learn. You pay too goodly a sum for the privlege of renting an aircraft to be treated as you are. Based on what you have to say about your instructors, you are not receiving quality instruction and it will end up costing you more in the long run as you must review, repeat, and relearn. Ask around the airport, you must have other options. Don't be afraid to pay a little more for wet rates or dual, you'll get what you pay for. If you can't switch, at least let the chief pilot/instructor or owner know of your predicament. And hang in there - there are many rewards for the sacrifices and hardships. I started out in C150s, was(still am) a CFI and have flown jet fighters and transports and had the time of my life in every airplane I,ve flown.

[skid]

Unfortunately most private pilots learn to fly to go quickly to exotic places with an air of romantiscism. They don't realize that requires an extreme amount of training, time, capital, and dedication. A single engine 4place airplane is not really an all weather, affordable, reliable means of transportation for someone who is going to fly 100 hours a year. People are unrealistic in their expectations. They also buy much more airplane than they can afford to maintain in a proper fashion. Unfortunately you can't change the laws of physics; there will never in the near future at least be a $50,000 4 place 200mph airplane that burns 7gals/hr AND is easy to fly. When Joe public keeps running out of gas, flying VFR into IFR, and generally running up insurance rates and liability policies for manufacturers, why does anyone think this will get better with a new breed of high performance airplanes. More performence comes from giving up something else, Slow speed stability, climb rate, light weight from lack of sound deadening,etc.,. Aviation is as cheap today adjusted for inflation as it ever was. The big surge in private airplane sales have always been coupled with a government training program (GI bill WWII and Vietnam) along with very aggresive tax incentives. Take these away and sales drop(big surprise). The only segment of private aviation thriving is grass roots type; aerobatics, homebuilding, and classic resoration. These are not and should not be mainstream activities. There is quality instruction available if one searches it out. If you're not able to look out for youself on the ground, how can you expect someone to teach you common sense to handle flight situations. I think the average public is getting the quality of service they deserve. I see a LOT of people with sad basic skills flying around. But noone wants to bruise their ego because they spend money with the fbo,cfi,etc.,. I don't have an answer , but i know that these abstract thoughts are much of the problem.

[DLJolly]

This forum was an entertaining read.. I got my license at 17 in the 70's at a small airport in Cincinnati, my main instructor was a wonderful elf of a lady from KY, who incidently got het FAA examiners license during my training and gave me my checkride. (under the hood from 500ft AGL to short final...interesting). My recollections of the time remain as the best of times. The old 3000 ft grass strip is now a taxiway for a 3500 ft asphalt runway. Dads old '56 182 is long since sold and I recently renewed flying here in CO at, again, a relatively small airport where I was attracted by, for lack of a better reason, familiar smells, old pilots, open hangars and lots of plane talk. Just like old times.
Flying is fun and to a certain extent glamorous, but these fade with the reality that it costs a lot. Flight for business and profit helps attenuate the costs for some, but for the day/vfr rec pilot type, it becomes a prohibitively expensive "hobby". I don't know how much of a new plane's cost covers the manufacturers liability, I am confident that it is significant. When the VFR pilot flys into a cold front and kills himself, then the family sues the builder and WINS, can we blame the builders for tacking the risk on the cost of the airframe? Could you see Ford doing well as a family car if the cost of their Taurus' engine was $25000 like a Lycombing? Many factors, including liability and regulation crank up the costs of flying, and the idea of flying being in the reach of everyone is unrealistic, and perhaps undesirable.After all, if folks are going to take their driving habits into an airport environment, it could get scary. Perhaps it's a good thing that the expense of flying, even at the recreational level, makes folks thing long and hard about it.
More so than driving a car, flying is a lot more than "just a fun thing to do". It's expensive and demanding of skills. Until I can afford to fly regularly (a.k.a. safely), I can't confidently say I will continue flying at all. But that costs money, which matters to all of us.
I have bookmarked this site, might even buy a plane, or, more realistically, join a club to lower the cost a bit.
GA is alive and dong fine. I just think the idea of getting everyone flying is a bit optomistic and perhaps unrealistic...
Safe flying to all

Dave

[djschaut]

GA isn't sexy.

[Jerry]

I don't think that most GA pilot's learn to fly because they imagine a world of flying to exotic places, and sipping cocktails in the sun. I think it is because it is a significant challenge, and a wonderful experience.
It cost me about $4K and 68hrs to get my private licence over a period of 10 months, that is less than the cost of a new car lease for the same period, and more fun.
I do agree about FBO's and some of the aircaft available, although the instructors on the whole try to balance things up. I have done most of my flying in 1982-6 Cessna 152s & 172s. I would not fly one without a good noise attenuating headset. However old these are pretty good aircraft, easy to fly and forgiving of mistakes, especially the 152. When you "loose" the instructor you will find a 152 plenty roomy, and adequately powerful for short flights.

[M_LIEBERMAN]

One of the responses to this topic told of inconsistent training. In New England, it is difficult to get training hours on a weekly basis because of the weather. I have found that the greatest problem is related to training people who have very different ways of flying, often in contradiction to the POH. The facility I went to used Cessna 150s. I flew with one instructor who made you keep the nose down at airspeed of 70 miles an hour on lift off, as per POH. Climeout speed was 80. I often got another instructor who put the flaps down as much as 15% during liftoff while I was flying. This person would yell if you got above 75 MPH during climeout. The POH suggests &% to *% for climeout. Still other instructors had different methods. The manager of the school thinks this was fine and that they know what they are doing.

There cannot be several best ways. A student will be very sensitive to situations like this, "You are going to be wrong 50% of the time" no matter what. I have seen several students quit partially or totally due to this frustration.

[Akroguy]

Since I've been flying for only four years, I can only offer my experiences, and personal solutions to the difficulties with GA. I received my private instruction at the Air Force Aero Club at our local AFB. I felt it was high quality training, and the instructors were held to higher standards that I've seen in the local FBO operations. Not only were they more reliable and disciplined, but they expected ME to be the same. I highly recommend the Part 141 way of learing to fly. There is a regimented process to it that did not allow great deviations in topics presented in flight, nor during ground school. I always knew what was coming up, and was prepared. I only had to "fire" an instructor once. I just felt his heart wasn't into it, and it affected MY morale as well. Since I was paying for it...I chose another CFI..an active duty F-15 pilot with an obvious passion for flying.

My post training flying is now done at a local FBO. It has been a never ending rollercoaster of maintenance squawks, scheduling difficulties, and vague currency requirements that seem to come out of nowhere. So, two years ago, I chose to build my own plane. I am now within a few months of being ready for FAA inspection on my RV8. I just looked at the long term expenses to keep myself interested and excited with aviation. Since all maintenance will be done by myself, my costs will be MUCH less to support the aircraft. I will not have to deal with scheduling of someone else's airplane, nor will I have to put up with a dirty interior, or empty tanks during preflight when I TOLD them I needed it fully fueled the previous day.

Yes, GA has some serious issues to deal with. I do enjoy the "uniqueness" of the pilot community, and I do not feel that everyone should be given the keys to go flying. I offer rides to anyone who is interested, including kids via the YOung EAgle program. I don't "push" my love of flying on anyone, and let them make their own decision to fly or not to fly. Just take good care of yourselves in the air, be courteous, expect the best from yourself and those you associate with in aviation. GA will survive from the ground up if we all strive to do this. OK, enough of my views. Fly safe!

[Jimbo]

I think the biggest problem is that most people are too lazy to got out and try anything that entails hard work. Sure it's expensive to learn to fly, but so is the heart bypass sergury one needs from years of sitting around watching TV an eating hamburgers. Flying also takes some brains, that thinking stuff is also hard work, I bet if Mr Gates built an airplane thousands of more people would boot it and give it a try.

[Dick Weinberg]

You got that right! I'm a big guy and don't necessarly like the close relationship a Cessna 150 forces me into with a student pilot. Here in Colorado at ^,00 and above we don't see C150s hardly at all. The performance reduces them (in essence to a single person airplane) You may find this hard to believe but most people don't evcen like a standard 160 HP C172. The converted 180HP models are preferred.

Whats wrong with GA. You have to have a talent in marketing if you operate an FBO or even as an instructor. Let's face it, flying is expensive. It takes a lot of nudging to "hook" a person ito the 40 hour wonderama of a private ticket. This little airport that serves a population of 7500 people produces a constant flow of applicants, sight-seeing flights, photo missions. I'm one of three instructors and I churn out 60 hours a month. Not bad for a pea-patch airport. If the operation is managed correctly, it's can be a profitable experience for the FBO and fun experience for the students/renters.


DICK

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[djschaut]

>Dick,
First, where is your Colorado airport? I live here, too--near Centennial, in Parker. I've flown into many front range and mountain fields.
I agree with your comments about constantly having to market general aviation--if you're in the business. There are many businessmen who would profit from learning to fly who haven't given it a thought. Think of the thousands of traveling salesmen or entrepreneurs out there. Also, hooking a recreational pilot provides a marketing niche. I like flying for utility, not for the love of it--and many people wouldn't intrinsically like flying, but would be attacted because of its utility. Take golfing for instance. You can pile your closest buddy and your clubs into your 172 or larger, fly an hour or two, golf at some remote, championship golf course, and be back before dinnertime. Heck, from Centennial in a T210, you can take a friend or two to the Aspen airport in 45 min., be at the gondola ten minutes later, ski all day, and be back to Denver in time to go out to eat. In the winter it takes six hours to drive to Aspen--one way. And sharing the cost of the rental or operating expenses is not that much! When people are presented with this type of utility, and then actually experience it for themselves, their lifestyles change and they then can't live without the airplane. In the Pacific Northwest, you can fly to any of a dozen islands in Puget Sound, near Vancouver and Seattle, in one day. To get to them by ferry, it would take a week of sitting on a boat or in heavy traffic to do that. One day, we flew in my Beech 58P from Seattle over Mt. Shuksan to Eastern Washington and ate lunch in Wenatchee, flew up the Eastern slope of the Cascades, over the North Cascades highway near Canada, over to San Juan island (across from Victoria, Canada), where we ate dinner of fresh waterfront seafood, and back over Sea-Tac to Auburn field. You don't need a 58P to do that, a 172 would do just fine. So, in this day and age, you would think people would start turning to general aviation just for the utility of it--to get more out of life. It's sure better than sitting in hours and hours of exhaust gases on the freeway.

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DJSchaut

[cyriaque]

All of the above are valid.

For me, the simplicity of early flight is gone except with ultralights. I'm not a technocrat. When I first started flying in the 60s, there were lots of small airports/grass strips where I could go and spend the afternoon. It was a laid back place where you could usually get a ride and certainly spend time shooting the bull. The first club I belonged to rented a J-3 for $6/hr wet. No electrics, no radio, just flying.

I guess I'm just an outdated old fart now.

[This message has been edited by cyriaque (edited 07-07-2000).]

[djschaut]

There are no age limits here. I'll take that $6/hr.

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DJSchaut