family of five in a 4 seaT plane,help

[jim bailey]

WE CURRENTLY RENT A GRUMMAN TIGER,WE HAVE THREE CHILDREN 6,4,3.THERE ARE NO 6 SEAT PLANES AVAILABLE TO RENT IN OUR AREA AND PURCHASING IS NOT A OPTION.CANNOT MODIFY THE GRUMMAN AS IT IS A RENTAL.CURRENTLY WE ARE BELTING ALL THREE IN THE BACK AND THEY FIT FINE BUT I KNOW IM NOT LEAGLE.ANY IDEAS?

[djschaut]

Jim,
I'm not sure it's a good idea using your real name if you have flight insurance or if your FBO has insurance on the number of 'souls' on board your Grumman. A few ideas: First, make two trips. Second, always make sure everyone is belted. Third, always do a weight and balance and always compute the density altitude to see if you're within the operating envelope of the Grumman. Fourth, don't fly in or around thunderstorms. Kids at that age never quiet down, making radio communication and flying the airplane difficult. Having three of them behind your head playing, fighting, laughing, or just talking can't but make for a dangerous situation. Adults are hard enough to keep quiet during takeoff, landing, or maneuvering in a busy traffic environment. The last recommendation is for you to fly by the rules. Bending the rules on the number of passengers tells me you may be willing to bend the rules in the air, too. That may put you into an early grave and leave the kids without a father.

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DJSchaut

[wxwatcher]

Jim,

Called a friend at FSDO. Here's the take from the folk who enforce the regs..

A four-place aircraft cannot be modified to handle five pax, even if they are children, without going through the whole flight test regeime again, including stress loading, weight/balance, and crash testing. Even the option of installing a third set of seat belts to insure everyone has their own belt as required by Part 91 requires all of the above. Reason, a five or six place aircraft is in a different "catagory" or "classification" of aircraft than a four place. They're covered by different certification requirements and you'd have to meet those requirements and tests before the aircraft was legal to fly with five on board.

Here's something else to keep in mind. Some FSDO's like to pull unannounced spot checks of arriving aircraft. They drive out to an airport, wait for a plane to arrive, drive up and ask for the paperwork, log books, pilot's log, license, insurance, etc. If they see five people getting out of a four place aircraft, you can bet they'll give some serious consideration to yanking a pilot license on the spot and they see what they can do in the violation and sanctions department.

Another area is the state aeronautics people. Some states give inspection authority to the local law enforcement officials (police, sheriff, etc) in specific areas relating to the safe operations of aircraft. If you're in one of those states and the local smokey sees five in a four-place, he's liable to introduce you to the amenities at the local cross-bar hotel.

Either one of these possibilities while on the outbound leg would really put a crimp in the travel plans.

Best bet.. Check around and see if there's any interest in the area for a larger aircraft. Maybe you can partner with someone to purchase one and do a lease back to the local FBO or flying club.

Good luck.

Jerry

[djschaut]

Jerry,
I actually had a sheriff check my credentials once, after making an emergency landing in Gunnison, Colorado--a rural location. He was thorough, too.

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DJSchaut

[jim bailey]

THANKS FOR THE ADVICE.I DID FIND A CLUB W
2 SARATOGAS[1 RETRACTABLE]DOES $144.50 PER HOUR WET SOUND HIGH?I AM CURRENTLY PAYING 56.00 WET FOR A TIGER.HOW MANY HOURS SHOULD I PLAN ON IT TAKING TO GET CHECKED OUT IN THE FIXED GEAR SARATOGA?I HAVE HAD MY LISCENCE OR A YEAR AND A HALF AND HAVE JUST SHORT OF 200 HOURS,50 IN A 172 HAWK XP EQUIPPED WITH A CONSTANT SPEED PROPELLER,THE BALANCE IN TIGERS AND CHEETAHS.
LASTLY IN CHECKING THE INTERNET THE CHEROKEE 6 SEEMS TO BE A AFFORDABLE AIRPLANE TO PURCHASE OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING?
JIM

[djschaut]

Jim,
The Saratoga you're planning on getting checked out in is just a glorified Cherokee-Six. They have the same airframe, Hershey-bar wing, club seating, and cargo door behind the left wing for passengers. They used to be called the Lance, too. If you're checked out in a 172XP, with a constant speed prop, it shouldn't take long to get checked out in the Saratoga. Maybe a little longer if it's a turbo model. This is a smarter way to go with the family.
About the Cherokee-Six, I've owned one. They are slow, but can carry literally a ton with full fuel. Because of their large cargo doors, they used to be retrofitted as air-ambulances. They used to be popular for drug-runners because of the huge payload. They would fly drugs across the border in them, land in the desert, and abandon them. They're relatively docile, cheap to annual, and rugged. They've been referred to as 'underpowered tuna boats.' But their value has doubled over the past few years, as people re-discover their utility. I flew mine through the Rocky Mountains several times, but they're better at the lower altitudes. If you don't need to get there yesterday, need a high payload, want plenty of room, with a low operating cost, in a plane that is cheap to annual, the Cherokee Six isn't a bad choice at all. It was just a tad too low and slow for me.
By the way, the hourly price for the Saratoga seems about right. 'Bout time to get that instrument rating.

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DJSchaut

[wxwatcher]

Jim,

I'd have to concur with DJ's assessment of the PA32 line. They all are fairly docile aircraft with a good range and outstanding payload (best in their class if I remember correctly). Look a little funny (tail heavy) sitting on the ground, but you can get used to that. Major differences from the Cessna's and Grumman's are the manual flaps and steerable nosewheel/toe brakes combo. (At least in the older models I was given a ride in) I learned to fly in a PA28-140 Cherokee, but have time in other PA28 models, as well as the C172 and AA5 Traveler (forerunner of the Tiger/Cheetah). Of the group, I prefered the Cherokee's.

Manual flaps make for consistantly predictable approaches, you know exactly how much flap you drop with each of the three settings. Steerable nosewheel/toebrake combo takes some of the worry out of crosswind landings/taxiing. However, you do have to get the hang of using the top part of the rudder peddles for braking while using the rest of the peddle for steering on the ground. (Been about 20 years since I've been in one, so the recollection is a bit fuzzy.)

Anyway, the PA32 is an excellent "flatland" aircraft, but could become marginal under high density altitude conditions.

The price per hour you quotes seems about right for out here on the west coast, but may be a tad high in the mid-west. I'll see if I can check with some contacts I have in Wisconsin and see what they rent for back there.

Anyway, I think you're making the right choice. Good luck and keep us informed on how things work out.

Jerry

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Comments and opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.

[wxwatcher]

Jim,

Forgot to mention.. With your 200 hours, including the XP time, I'd guess you could check out in a PA32 in 10 hours or less.

They're also very stable IFR aircraft, so you may want to look at that option also. Combine the checkout with some IFR training and you'd be money ahead.

Again, Good Luck..

Jerry

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Comments and opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.

[jim bailey]

THANKS FOR THE INFO,IM ON THE EAST COAST
[NYC AREA] SO I GUESS THE 144.50/HOUR
FOR A SARATOGA IS IN LINE.ABOUT THE INSTRUMENT RATING,I AM GOING TO DO SOME HOOD WORK WHEN I GET CHECKED OUT IN THE SARATOGA.
HOWEVER I HAVE NO INTENTIONS OF GETTING MY INSTRUMENT RATING.2 REASONS,1-I AM PURELY
A RECREATIONAL PILOT,IF THE FORCAST IS CLOSE TO MARGINAL AND I WANT TO GET THERE I DRIVE.
2-I DO NOT FEEL I WOULD FLY IFR ENOUGH TO REMAIN PROFICIENT.
AS A MATTER OF FACT IN THE 1.5 YEARSI HAVE HAD MY TICKET I HAVE BEEN WEATHERED IN TWICE,I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH RENTING A CAR TO GET HOME AND GETTING THE PLANE ANOTHER DAY.
ONE OF YOU GUYS HAD OWNED A CHEROKEE 6.WHAT WOULD YOU CONSIDER THE COST PER HOUR OF
OWNERSHIP TO BE, NOT CONSIDERING THE COST OF PURCHASE .
JIM

[jrwyatt]

Actually, I just called the AOPA help line on
this very topic and they have an FAA letter
of "Clarification" that says 5 in a four seater is ok IF the w&B is ok and the
seatbelts aren't holding more than they are specified for. The seatbelts just have to be able to hold your kids! This is cheaper that a Saratoga!

Robert

[djschaut]

Interesting point. But, I'll bet that the Cheetah has four seat belts designed for one person each and it would take a completely new FAA certification to get an additional seat belt approved--as described above.

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DJSchaut