Opinions and Advice: New Pilot Training in a Citabria

[Kulanu]

I am about to begin my training for my PPL. I would like to know the pros and cons of doing my initial training in a Citabria?

Many thanks in advance

Kulanu

[Howard]

No responses? I'm curious about this as well.

[BravoRomeo]

No responses because I didn´t see it!

Your post is more than a month old now, so I guess you´re already finishing your career as an airline pilot by this time , but anyway will try to ask.

I have some 200 Citabria hours... it doesn´t make a point, but I loved it and wanted to tell. Whatever. While I was flying it, a father came with his two daughters. He wanted both to become pilots, more than that, he wanted them to become old fashioned aviators, so both started and finished their PPL´s on that Citabria. Problems? No, no more at least than with any other airplane. It´s a taildragger, it´s aerobatic capable... alright, and? If you start your lessons on a Jumbo you´ll learn to fly a Jumbo.

Taildraggers are not that hard, specially the Citabria. You can see perfectly over the nose and the controls, with that aerobatic capabilities, are responsive enough for you to correct any strange tendency with just a very instinctive hint on the stick or the rudders (no slow response making you overcontrol like in some others).

I don´t see any problem in learning with one, no problem other than later on, if you plan on renting. You´re going to find thousands of 150´s and 172´s for every Citabria. Then, if it´s a 7ECA, it comes with the same tiny Lyco O-235 you can find on the 152´s, just the C1 version, developing 115HP instead of 108HP, so the renting/operational price is not much higher than renting/owning a 152 (it´s Ceconite covered and with a wing spar AD issue... that is not that much of an issue unless you leave it become one! so there the slight difference in $$). It offers a much roomier interior though, better visibility and that aerobatic part, that you can and should exploit.

I sincerely prefer it over a 150 or even a 172 for the "flying around" by myself or with a passenger. As stated, you have more room inside than on any of both. Your elbow and knee are not constantly contacting with the guy by your side... mostly because he´s not there! but too because of the actual space. Being in the back, if it´s equipped with the optional wide seat (most have it) it´s something like heaven. Relax there, put your elbows on both windowframes and enjoy the view! You or your passengers will love it. On the summer, or winter if you´re man enough, leave the door down on Earth and go up to hang almost literally around. The view is amazing (not talking about the door-out now); you have a window at both sides and at the same good distance. The speed is not that bad unless you are in an intercontinental trip. They are stable, easy... quite flyable.

Did I mention that I love them? A pity that man-airplane weddings are not yet legal.

[Kulanu]

I thought my qustion was lost in cyborspace. Thank you for your wonderful and detailed reply. Well, bad news first: I am not training in a Citabria...

Now, the good news: My CFI wants to do it in a Decathlon! I am going for it.


I will report back.

Kulanu

[BravoRomeo]

GOOO for it!!

A rather nice airplane overall. If the idea is getting some proficiency in handling an airplane, that´s your best option. If you started with nosewheel planes, you´ll feel the taildragger a bit more touchy on the beginning, during the first 5, 7, 10 hours... don´t despair, there´s nothing wrong with the combination you-taildragger and it´s quite usual. By now you should be used to the responses of a Cessna or Piper during the first meters of a take off and the last during a landing. The problem is simply that you have to re-learn the needed imputs, their strength and timing. Once you overcome it, you´ll have faster hands and feet and a better capacity to re-learn the basics of any other new plane you put your hands on.

Meanwhile, or later (I´d say it´s better if you first get your solo on the plane, the way that by the time you start training some light aerobatics, you´re not worrying about "Oh good Lord! Aerobatics!? I don´t even feel I´m able to land this thing!") it´s easy for some aerobatic maneuvers, getting into and taking you out of them in an easier manner than, say, an Aerobat, but not so easily to make the trainning useless, like if you make it on a Pitts or an Extra. What do I mean?:

Controls are not much softer than on any regular piston single you may rent or be flying in, so the strength you´d have to apply in any of both are similar, making it easier in case of necessity (the called "safety maneuvers"). You are going to find the attitudes and needed imputs relatively similar on a PA-28 and on a Decathlon once you´re upside down. But, if you train on a serious aerobatic trainer (ala Pitts S2B, Extra 300...), they tend to be EASY to meneuver, not needing much to do anything you want. Let´s compare an aileron roll on an Aerobat, a Decathlon and a Pitss:

On the Aerobat you´ll have to DIVE to get some speed, pull HARD on the yoke, PUSH it to the desired roll side, get lots of help with the rudder... Too similar to a non aerobatic plane for my likings (making it tempting for some people to start rolling airplanes they shouldn´t, by the way).

On the Decathlon, you´ll have to dive also; you´ll have to pull hard on the yoke; you´ll have to push hard on the stick and play with the rudder, etc, yeah, but the thing is that its responses and attitude, while resembling those on a regular Cessna or Piper, are softer in general, giving you faster movements. It´s just a hint "more aerobatic" than an Aerobat, just the needed hint, in my opinion.

On a Pitts, you may also need some diving, depending on what you´ve been doing before starting the roll... but not always, and definetively, you won´t need a hard pull, a hard push and any help from the rudder. It almost rolls with two fingers. Nothing to do with any normal plane.

So, the first won´t give you the sensation of an aerobatic airplane, just the sensation of a rolling 150, with all the nose up, nose down, push here, pull there, floffy yoke sometimes. Using the third, you won´t feel any better on a 172 or a PA-28 as soon as there´s nothing in common. The Decathlon is just there, with similar pulls, pushes, hard controls, etc, but in lower quantities, the way that it´ll make your life easier during the trainning.

Report back!

[Kulanu]

I will report back. My goal is not so much aerobatics as it is to become a very safe pilot and have fun in the purist sense of the sport. To go places, I have the privilege to ride in the back of a B-200. In my case, it is about fun and safety and not transportation. Again, thank you for your insightful and detailed response to my inquiry. While this training path appears to be a bit unconventional you confirm that it is still prudent.

Best,

Kulanu

[BravoRomeo]

You´re more than welcome. As I told you, I love Citabrias and flying around as you describe.

In my opinion, that is just that, an opinion, getting some aerobatic trainning will make a safer pilot of you. Making it and taking recurrent trainning, of course. If your idea is not going from A to B upside down everyday, loop, roll, spin... all around, you´ll always be over most airplane´s attitudes, being able to recover most strange aircraft positions or simply not leaving it go there. Maybe someone without specific trainning is able to recover his airplane from the blue side on the bottom attitude, but he´ll have slower responses that might not be correct. For instance, the natural inertia is pulling the yoke, making a S-split of it. Unless your airspeed is low enough when you find yourself there and you have altitude to eat, that reaction could be the worse. Rolling it back to the blue side up attitude is the safe optoin, and that reaction can be achieved by not getting too shocked by the new view of the sky at your feet.

Of course, if one is mad enough to go rolling around on every flight, he´ll have more chances of finding himself into problems one fine day. As I understand from what you write, that´s not the idea. Then again, train and re-train often. Whenever you feel aerobatic and whenver the day invites to that, book the Decathlon, take a seat with your instructor, chat about what you´re going to do, inspect the plane, take it high enough, take any safety meassures you can think of, and start having fun! Prepare the flight and the chances of having surprises will be minimum, unlike if you leave your mad hands go by themselves anytime. Prepare, prepare and prepare. Then train, train and train.

Like getting an IFR even if you don´t plan on flying in actual IMC will make you safer, this will too. The difference I see is that the IFR trainning will make you a better cruiser in your daily flights (where IMC will be efectively avoided) and the aerobatic trainning will bring better hands to the pilot flying your plane.

Cheers!

[Denny of Oakland]

Just remember after you finish your standard pilot training and receive your PPL the aerobatics training can begin. However I would like to see pilot that want to train for aerobatics to have a very good understanding of aircraft systems and flight controls. The last things is making sure and purchase your own parachute.

I just finished up training and received my Senior Rigger (back) parachute certificate and believe me having your own equipment is the only way to go.

Wish you well my friend.

Denny of Oakland