I now have over 23 hours, and 125 landings, and STILL can't land properly...

[Zonno]

As mentioned in my other topic, I'm still having a hard time getting the landings down pat. If I could just get that down, I'd just about be ready for solo. Everything else (power-off and power-on stalls, slow flight, unusual attitudes, take-offs, pattern work,) is pretty good. My ground reference maneuvers aren't perfect, but I can still work on them after I solo. The landings are the only thing still getting to me. Is this normal? Have there been other people that's had an exceptionally hard time with this?

[AngelKiha31]

Oddly enough the only mandatory part of flying is also the hardest part of flying. I blame Murphy.

If you have a nice long runway, see if your instructor would be willing to spend an hour of doing only soft field landings, in which you touch down as lightly as possible, as if you were landing on soft grass. Or mud.

Try that for an hour and you'll start getting the hang of it! Well, that's how I got the landings down mostly.

Angel

[Zonno]

Would that include only having about 20 degrees of flaps? Would that be where you touch down fast, without rounding out or stalling? (I'd look it up in my Airplane Flying Handbook, but I don't have it with me right this second).

[Dantilla]

You really need to learn to land in different conditions and configuations.

I recently completed a BFR, and did everything from full-flap landings to no-flap landings, to simulated engine failure on downwind.

Partial flaps is a good idea in strong winds- There is a time to use 20 degrees of flaps. But if you get used to always using 20, will you be messed up during strong winds? Probably not if you have a very long runway, but there will be times you want to land at a short strip on a windy day.

Keep plugging away- keep doing lots of landings. Eventually, you will be able to do nice landings either with full flaps, or no flaps at all.

[AngelKiha31]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

You really need to learn to land in different conditions and configuations.

I recently completed a BFR, and did everything from full-flap landings to no-flap landings, to simulated engine failure on downwind.

Partial flaps is a good idea in strong winds- There is a time to use 20 degrees of flaps. But if you get used to always using 20, will you be messed up during strong winds? Probably not if you have a very long runway, but there will be times you want to land at a short strip on a windy day.

Keep plugging away- keep doing lots of landings. Eventually, you will be able to do nice landings either with full flaps, or no flaps at all.

It is true about landing in different conditions, but if you have a perpendicular crosswind, only use 20deg of flaps, as more will cause issues with the rudder. In the manual for our '75 172, slips are not to be done with more than 20deg of flaps, since using more can cause control problems with the rudder and elevator effectiveness. Since you enter a cross-controled state before touching down in a good crosswind, this rule applies. It's amazing how ineffective the rudder gets. Story: After touching down with maximum perpendicular crosswind of 15mph and full flaps, we started drifting off the downwind side of the runway. My instructor was telling me to hit the rudder, and I told him i had it as far as it would go. The wind dropped slightly, and the rudder came back in to effect. Chances are that if I didn't have full flaps, and only 20deg, there would probably have been no issues with the rudder.

[airfreddy]

Hello:

Landings are every students main problem area. I agree with the posts above. First you should be landing in all configurations including slips to landing full flaps, no flaps and power off approaches. You should also be practicing in a strong crosswind.

The main problem I see with students is the point you are looking at when you transition to the runway. When you start to level off look at the end of the runway then keep the cowling of the airplane on the end of the runway as you touch down.

Another thing you should do is try and not let the nosewheel touch the runway after the main wheels have touched down.

Airfreddy

[Dantilla]

Not too far from here, we have a former WWII base with a long runway that has little traffic.

Find a long runway, and try this:

Normal approach, landing configuration, but hold the airplane off. Fly down the entire length, with your landing gear within one foot of the runway, at 70 mph.

After doing this a half-dozen times or so, you will have an accurate picture of the proper landing attitude.

When you are comfortable holding the airplane 6 inches off the ground, Come in one more time, but as soon as the airplane is stabilized 6 inches up, do nothing different, but close the throttle. The airplane will naturally make a beautiful landing.

[Zonno]

Thanks for all your advice.

I've got another question, exactly HOW good do your landings have to be in order to solo? Naturally, they have to be good enough to land safely and without any danger of tearing the landing gear or tires up. But do they HAVE to be picture perfect? (Meaning, right on the center line so that if they tire had paint on it, you could literally paint the line).

Everyone has bad landings at some time or another. The last couple of times we did touch-and-go's, I made some pretty good landings, but my instructor still wasn't satisfied with them. For instance, again, I wasn't right on the centerline. Another thing I do is in a slight crosswind, the wrong landing gear touches first, and he says if it was a stiff crosswind, the airplane might roll over. And sometimes, there's still a little sideload when I land (JUST A LITTLE), but I don't know if any sideload at all is unacceptable or not.

I'm wondering if the instructor is expecting too much for me, or even trying to keep me going so he can continue to get money from me while flying. I know my landings have to be good enough, but I've heard plenty of people say that as a student pilot, landings are not going to be perfect.

[Dantilla]

Your instructor is responsible for your actions. You will not be signed off to solo until your instructor is convinced you can consistantly make acceptable landings.

If anything happens to you or the airplane, the FAA will be all over the instructor. Instructors want to keep a clean record with the FAA. One of the most difficult decisions an instructor will face is when to sign off a student for solo or a checkride. Every instructor has a pass/fail rate of his/her students.

Good instructors have high pass rates, and need to keep it that way.

So while it is the instructor's decision to sign you off for solo flight, it is YOUR responsibility to earn that signature.

[midway]

When you are comfortable holding the airplane 6 inches off the ground, Come in one more time, but as soon as the airplane is stabilized 6 inches up, do nothing different, but close the throttle. The airplane will naturally make a beautiful landing.

I also had that problem, and in particular, landing on the nosewheel. When someone gave me the above advice everything clicked.

I had heard over and over, Once you make that first perfect landing, it might well be the best one you'll ever make. it just feels SO sweet.

THAT was the day the instructor said,
"Do a few more T&G's."
I did.
"Taxi over there to the windsock. Got your Medical on you?"
"Yes...?"
(Scribble scribble scribble...Opens door) "OK, do three more, and see me inside."

One is too busy to notice the empty seat. But it's a day you never forget.

[midway]

If anything happens to you or the airplane, the FAA will be all over the instructor. Instructors want to keep a clean record with the FAA. One of the most difficult decisions an instructor will face is when to sign off a student for solo or a checkride. Every instructor has a pass/fail rate of his/her students.

A CFII friend of mine once explained it as...

"WE are the ones who have to lay awake nights if we sign someone off we shouldn't."

Someone with marginal landings should consider living in my part of the coutnry with fickle weather.
I was in a situation where I HAD get down and HAD to land in a crosswind above the demonstrated crosswind component of the airplane (PA38-112). I didn't ask for this, I didn't take chances, I checked the WX and file a flight plan, etc.etc.

I am going to be honest here. The landing went well. I sat in the plane and cried before I went into the office, thinking about what could have happened..And thanked my FI for being such a bastard.

[planesafe1]

Zonno,

I've read all of your posts regarding landing......remember, be patient. I just got my PPL in February, so I remember the landing phase quite well. I then transitioned from a 152 to a Beech Musketeer and had to learn to land all over again. Again, patience.

Like the others have said, try different flap settings. I also read that you feel like the ground is rushing up to meet you......well, give er a bit of throttle, this will flatten your approach and let you better visualize where you are on the runway. This is if your instructor will let you, I don't see why he wouldn't.

I am now a 90 hour pilot and I still have to concentrate on the landing phase, they are not all pretty, but they are safe and that is the MOST important thing.

Good Luck and keep us posted on your practice. Also, did you buy the King (snore...LOL) videos? I did and they were boring to watch, but they do have good information and maybe the sight picture that they show would help you out. Check on ebay, usually a bunch for sale there for cheap.

Sam

[sandfarmer]

Originally Posted by AngelKiha31

Story: After touching down with maximum perpendicular crosswind of 15mph and full flaps, we started drifting off the downwind side of the runway. My instructor was telling me to hit the rudder, and I told him i had it as far as it would go.

My instructor says to prevent a runway skid in crosswind to put in full aileron into the wind when wheels are on the ground, on t&g's I would keep it in full until the nosewheel comes up then revert back to keeping wings level. We did some pretty intense crosswind practice the other day and he got me down to brass tacks on the landing on the centerline. Polishing my skills a little, he said he knew I could land it now it was time to get picky on his part!

I've got 17 hours, soloed with 9 and had my 3rd by 12 hours and moved on to unsupervised solo. Fixing to start cross countries. Landing is my favorite phase of flight and I can tell you that once you get that sight picture it will all just click together and work from then on. Not to say they will all be picture perfect from then on though! Good Luck!

[chopdoc]

As a student pilot myself, I know how you feel. I am at my checkride point right now (flew a couple days with another CFI to be sure and he says I am ready ) With Landings, I kept screwing up bad and then I realised my mistake, as soon as you feel the plane enter ground effect (you will feel it float), dont look down, move your vision to the end of the runway. That did the trick for me and with over 100 landings and a little over 14 hours, 10 of which was spent in the pattern, I was able to solo.

The crosswind landings, being able to do a short field or soft field landings will all come in time. When you do solo your instructor will probably put a wind restriction on you anyways. Right now just concentrate on landing the plane and your feel for it will develope soon. And once you are past solo, spend time in the pattern doing touch and goes, and bring water with you. A couple of hours in a hot plane flying the pattern and calling all legs of the pattern makes you real thirsty!

I asked my CFI what made him decide I was ready to solo, his reply was I stopped scaring him on landings lol

Good luck!

[airtractorflyer]

What are you having problems with in the landing? Flaring to high? Directional control? Crosswind? As i stated a while ago i am an ag pilot make thousands of landings a year in all diffrent wind conditions on short narrow strips. I was filling out my log book the other day and have made like right shy of 16,000 landing in my 8 years of flying in heavy tailwheel airplanes. I think I might be able to give some advise if you give more specifics.