Realistic Range of Flight

[MikeMedia]

As a new student of flying, I am trying to get a handle on the concept of Nautical Miles. I've been reading the specs of various craft (mostly single engine e.g. Piper Arrow).

On average, the Arrow has a 65% cruise range of 660 NM. From Knoxville, TN, that would encompass New York, Chicago, Kansas City & even Ft. Lauderdale.

Is that REALLY possible? Or am I practicing wishful math?


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[wxwatcher]

That sounds about right. The P28R's have a fairly good useful range OR useful load.

I flew a P28A-140 (a smaller non-retractable Piper) from Indianapolis over Chicago and up the shore of Lake Michigan to near Green Bay. Just under three hours at a cruise of 105 knots and used less than half tanks of fuel. I had enough fuel to make Minneapolis if I wanted, but I would have missed my sister's wedding. Not the best idea at the time. :-)

I've even read of people who trick out single engine aircraft with extra fuel tanks in the baggage and cockpit areas, then fly non-stop from the west coast to Honolulu. The Arrow is one of those that have an easier time of it than most.



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Comments and opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.

[skid]

Just remember that the numbers are optimum, no wind, properly leaned. In the real world, you must allow for the often encountered 20 knt headwind, occaisional rerouting by ATC, less than optimum leaning, Also, fuel stops are not always available at the point in your route to be able to use all of your range and still allow a reasonable reserve. But, yes, the book figures should be very close to achievable if conditions fit your flight plan. A nautical mile is approximately 1.15 statute miles.

[Birdman of Ballard]

Practically speaking, the limiting factor might turn out to be your *own* endurance, if you know what I mean....

[djschaut]

Birdman of Ballard,

(Is that Ballard, Washington?)

You haven't lived until you've placed the plastic urinal under a coat as you sit shoulder-to-shoulder next to a friend and extended your 'range.'


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DJSchaut

[Birdman of Ballard]

A pleasure I'm not looking forward to, I assure you (my wife, who has much less endurance than I, refers to me as "the camel"). I remember seeing ads for "Jill's John" and other devices that just made me shudder....

I think I'd rather just land. I like exploring new out-of-the-way airports anyway.

(Ya sure youbetcha, that's Ballard, Seattle, WA). Uf-da!

[djschaut]

Birdman,

I'm from Kent, Washington. I've flown into Auburn Municipal (mostly), Crest Airpark, Tacoma General, the Renton airport, San Juan Island, Roche Harbor (fun to land there over the sailboat masts!), Pierce County, Ocean Shores, Wenatchee, an airport near Forks on the Olympic Peninsula and a grass strip near Omak.

I guess I'm desensitized to using a urinal, because I'm a physician. I've either observed or 'heard' patients using urinals in the hospital for years and it just doesn't bother me. Also, my kids used one in the car to extend trips. We'd just rinse it out at a gas station. If you get a device with a cap, it seals the smell in the bottle. Remember, healthy urine is sterile--doesn't carry infections. However, if left to get stagnant, bacteria love it. If you're flying to some distant destination and up at the flight levels, it may take a half-hour of descent and then a 45 minute climb-out just to use the bathroom. That diversion can cut significantly into a trip and would also be quite costly. But, if you're close to the ground and sightseeing, it wouldn't matter anyway. When your bladder is about to rupture and you have a urinal handy, witnesses don't matter. I'd recommend covering up the operation, though, and put the cap on quick. An aircraft cabin is not very big and the smell would travel fast.

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DJSchaut

[Birdman of Ballard]

I guess I'll see how it goes when I get to the stage of taking long cross countries (I'm just returning as a high-time, long-inactive student). It seems like there's already plenty for me to manage whilst flying, and I really can not imagine being on a solo XC flight and having to futz around with a plastic bottle and everything, all the while trying to fly the plane, navigate, deal with ATC, etc. I guess you get REAL good at trimming 'er up for hands-off!

I'm now flying out of Boeing Field and I have to say that after being away from flying for so very long, all the actual flying itself is pretty much still very familiar, but the procedures for flying in/out of BFI seem a bit stressful to me. I bet things are a bit more relaxed at other local fields, eh?

After I finish up the ticket, I will be looking for either a local club to join, or if I'm lucky I might even buy an older 2-seater (probably a 152 or something similar). Do you know where it's (relatively) cheaper to tie down/hangar airplanes around Seattle? I assume that BFI is the most expensive. I thought I saw a sign at Auburn not long ago for $30/tie downs. I wonder if that's the cheapest around, and what's the cheapest covered storage (hangars, etc.)....got any suggestions?

Thanks.

[SeaAir]

This seems to have gotten off the original topic, but I do know a little bit about tiedowns. (I live in West Seattle.)

At BFI tiedowns are $81.75/mo and PAE is $40/mo. Gas is also about 10 cents a gallon more at BFI. (PAE has a self serve gas pump which probably accounts for the difference.) There is limited tiedown at Harvey but I don't know the price, and your only other choice (assuming you don't want to ride on a ferry) is Auburn. The bigger question, and the one we wrestled with, is how much is a 45-60 min. drive worth to you to save a little money on tiedown. We decided to keep ours at BFI for now.

[Birdman of Ballard]

Well, BFI is certainly the closest field for me too (although if you're in West Seattle, it's REALLY close for you), but I'm willing to look at other options too (up to a point). I agree that a long commute just to get to the airport is no fun, but Paine Field or Auburn are only a bit further away for me, and if I could get a much better storage situation there, I'd consider it. The sign for $30/month tiedown space at Auburn made me wonder if I might be able to put a plane in a hangar there (or elsewhere) for around the same price as a tiedown space at Boeing Field....if that turned out to be the case, then I would probably be willing to drive the extra 15-20 minutes each way to keep the old plane out of the elements.

BTW, yes, this has strayed off topic, my apologies. I have been looking for some web-based forum or other discussion area specific to flying in/around the Pacific Northwest (to ask these kinds of questions). Do you know of anyplace like that? Thanks.

[djschaut]

NO, MAN!! Keep it here!!

Who cares if it's off the topic!!?? That's the whole fun of the website.

If you want, I'll start a new subject in The Hangar--'Northwest Flights.'

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DJSchaut

[MikeMedia]

Well, since I'm the guy that started all this, maybe I oughta' jump back in! The conversation is heading toward my next question anyway... Landing Fees!?! Tie-Down cost, Fuel, Rent/Buy Insurance? Whew!

I make a decent enough living, and tried to think through the cost of my new avocation, but I gotta tell ya' the potential expenditures make my palms sweatier than my first flight.

How 'bout it guys where are the bargains in GA flying?

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[sideslip]

MM: Yes, the cost can get big fast. The faster you go and more people you want to go with increase the dollars needed.

I have been flying for about three years. Currently I still rent, but am starting to look for a plane to call my own. Here's what I have found:

Most of my flying is within 100nm and usually in daylight. Out of 300+ hours, 15 are at night. Of 100+ crosscountry hours, 75 hours are between 50 and 150 miles. Usually my flights are just with my wife along. Once in a great while I'll have more than 1 passenger. I have been able to fly a number of different planes and the more bells and whistles the more it cost to fly and maintain.

After looking and testing, a small tailwheel plane is the best for me to own. A Champ or a J3 is relatively inexpensive ($17,000 to $25,000). Without an electric system, they are very inexpensive to operate (fuel burn 4-5 gph) with few things to go wrong. They fly slow making sightseeing fun and both you and your passenger can see out both sides(tandem seats). It is fun and inexpensive flying. If I want to go somewhere far away or fast or carry more than 1 person,I can always rent.

So there are ways to fly, own a plane, and not spend a great amount of money.

Mike S.

[Birdman of Ballard]

I too am styruggling with the costs (who doesn't?). Now going back to flying after many inactive years, I'm pretty determined to finish up that ticket, and after that....well, I will surely rent for at least a little while, but owning my own plane has been a dream I've had since I was a wee tyke. For the first time in my life, I think I might actually be able to get away with it financially. My dear wife, bless her sweet soul, didn't put up much of a stink when I began to float the idea, and has recently been sounding downright supportive (and all this from a woman who sometimes gets motion sickness during a short, gently drive to the neighborhood Safeway!). But I digress...

I have some stock I can sell to raise enough capital to buy an old airplane outright - no loan payments (I hate debt). A voice in the back of my head says I should probably invest this money for my retirement, but I'm not listening very much (besides, we all know how small airplanes are excellent investments, right?). I look over the ads in Trade-A-Plane, etc., and I think I have a pretty good idea how much airplane I can afford to purchase. I'm looking at an old C-150, maybe a C-140/120, T-Craft or Luscombe. Nohting too fancy, just a basic, low-cost bird.

I still have lots of homework to do before getting anywhere near a purchase (I really do not want to walk into a disaster...I just want a simple, small, old airplane for local VFR fun).

What I'm still trying to get a handle on is how much I'll need to budget for regular expenses. Other than gas & oil for when it flys, what are the other regular expenses I need to plan for? I'm expecting insurance, tie-down, regular maintenance (and some fund for the expensive maintenance which surely will come eventually). Besides that stuff, what else is there?

Thanks!

[SeaAir]

Birdman,

About the only major thing you missed is the annual, which can be fairly expensive.

The real trick is being able to handle the unexpected expenses when they come along - and they will. Older airplanes of the type you are looking at just require more maintenance. Sometimes it is a major expense (like an early engine overhaul), but often it is the nickel and dime (read that $50 and $100) items that get you.