Landings

[Reponator]

I have around 12 hours and have just started practicing landings. I feel like I'm just not getting it. Has anyone else felt this way? Is there anything I can do when not in the airplane to improve my approaches and landings? Is it hard for everyone to catch on to langings? It is discouraging to me because I feel that the one thing I want to do really well is the landing.

Hang in there. Good landings will come with time and practice. I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it is true. There are other aspects of flying that deserve just as much (if not more) attention. Landing will eventually become routine (with crosswind landings always a challenge).

A good approach is the very first aspect of a good landing. If you turn onto final and are really high or low or are far to the left or right of the centerline, then don't be surprised when you don't make a descent landing. Sometimes it is best to just go around and try again. Airspeed is also very important. Being at the right airspeed during the approach is the key to making a good landing. When I started accepting only good approaches, most ended in very good landings. If I tried to salvage a bad approach, then I almost always ended up with a go-around or crappy landing.

You'll still very new to the game. Give it some time and try to make a good stabilized approach.

[Chapster]

I sure have and can remember the frustration of trying to land on the runway but always wound up as an attempt to land in the air, i.e. @15-20 feet off the ground which would inevitably result in a quick descent followed by either a pancake landing or oscillations down the runway. Judging the proper approach and descent for landing will take time. My advice to you is that you recognize that fact and relax, allow yourself time to learn, and eventually you will become proficient.

When not in the airplane, I recommend that you consider using a PC flight simulator such as Microsoft's Flight Simulator. When I was having difficulty with landings, I began to utilize a flight simulator to practice. I suggest you begin by just establishing a steady state descent to the runway in a flight sim with the winds turned off. Do that many times and at different airspeeds. Don't worry about the flare, the nose attitude, etc. Once you have stabilized a solid descent at @65-70 knots to the runway, I would then begin to concentrate on the flare and touchdown. For the flare, once you know you are above the runway and about to hit it, just pull back on the yoke and try to fly the airplane down the runway with the power off. If all this goes smoothly, I would then add a bit of wind for crosswind practice if you are at that point in your training.

Also, you may want to progress in your flight training toward slow flight...yes slow flight does help establish the reslationship of pitch (airspeed), power (rate of descent), and developing the proper flare attitude.

I hope all this helps you and remember that time is your best friend...

[Reponator]

Thanks for the replies. I have realized it is something I will just get with time now. I did alot better today. I tried my FS200 and thought that I shouldn't. I thought it might screw me up as to the real world. It really worked for you? I think I'll try it again. Thanks again.

[chrisriggs]

Initially I was taught taught to land by look and feel and was having a hard time being consistent. I kept overcontrolling and didn't let the airplane fly itself. A new instructor gave me a more structured method that has made my landings more consistent. Here's the list (keep in mind the settings are for a C172):

-Abea7

[pbagrat]

I agree with Chris. I started flying again two weeks ago after 12 years. I was also having trouble with landings, particularly cross wind landings. My instructor taught me to use the same technique abeam the runway numbers, turning base, and final. If you follow this perfectly, you will set yourself up for a perfect landing every time.

I just soloed today (2nd solo)and that technique came in handy as it was a bit windy. I was proud of myself and you will be too with practice. Also, the Flight Simulator really does help. I own FS95, 98, 2000 and 2002. I think thats one major reason why I was able to solo again after 12 years in only 5 hours. Of course in many ways it is like riding a bike; You never forget! Just keep practicing and don't get frustrated.

[Chapster]

I should emphasize that no flight simulator is any substitue for real world flight experience. However, if there is one thing a sim can do is help you develop a picture in your mind as to how a landing looks and how it should be performed. That is the reason I use PC flight simulators today which is to form the mental picture and become accustomed to the procedure.

For example, when flying the pattern, on downwind, I reduce throttle to about the bottom of the green and pull the carb heat. When abeam the runway, I reduce another 2-3 hundred RPM and descend, stabilize the aircraft, turn base, final, and land. All this I can do in a simulator and when I am in the real airplane, do it again.

[tvilledavis]

Your buddies here have given you good advice, Reponator. Hang in there, be patient, it will come. Just look around your local FBO - there are plenty of people a lot dumber than you that are good pilots, aren't there? Your problem is very natural and expected. Equally predictable is that some time between getting your license and 100 hours or so, you'll go through the whole thing again. And at various times through your training, you'll "forget" how to land. Keep your chin up - it happens to all of us, and it will pass. Meanwhile, good luck and congratulations on having the good judgment to seek advice from your peers!

[rwoods]

I was just in the same situation of being quite frustrated with my landings. I would start my flare well above the runway b/c it appeared I was lower than I actually was. Nothing I read or tried worked, until my instructor raised my seat! The seat was lowered too much for me to see clearly enough over the instrument panel. The first landing I attempted with the seat just a little higher made all the difference. If you are having similar issues, raising the seat might help.

[bobmrg]

Spend some time in the airplane just fixing in your mind the height of your eyes above the surface...probably like driving a pickup or SUV. When you level off (I hate the word "flare"), you want your eyes to be slightly higher, but not much...maybe a couple of feet. As the airplane flies down the runway with the prop idling and the flaps providing drag, airspeed will decrease, there will be less airflow over the tail feathers, and the nose will get heavy...don't let it. Hold the top of the cowling so that it just obscures the far end of the runway. This slowing/adding backpressure procedure continues until the wheels touch.

The airplane has kinetic energy (mass times airspeed squared) which must be dissipated before it will quit flying...too much energy and you will land long or too much back pressure will cause ballooning.

[Reponator]

Thanks for all the replies. They are all very helpful. I think the landings are just going to take some time.....

[David Catta]

you know everyone has its own difficulties and you don't have to worry.

Some advices for a good landing:

practice on keeping the speed at 1,3 stall velocity

practice great angle turns and speed holdings

try making a mark of a 5% descent attitude on the windshield

aim a touchdown point 300ft before the thereshold

get yourself accostumated with two finger flying and little delicate moves.

If you need anymore advices or if you have any other problems continue to post, we're here to listen and help

have a good luck on your flying

[italy430]

For example, when flying the pattern, on downwind, I reduce throttle to about the bottom of the green and pull the carb heat. When abeam the runway, I reduce another 2-3 hundred RPM and descend, stabilize the aircraft, turn base, final, and land. All this I can do in a simulator and when I am in the real airplane, do it again.

I've been reading a lot of replies on this site and I made the effort to register on this site to make a post because I thought that it was of some importance. I would take anything that "Chapster" says very cautiously. He seems to be very arrogant and have a rogue behavior, and his explanations frankly don't make a lot of sense most of the time.

The reason I quoted this text from Chapster is because he is telling you to do something illegal. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DESCEND (OR CLIMB) ON DOWNWIND!! It is unsafe as well as illegal.

Also as a general rule for new pilots, the internet is a fantastic resource but I suggest you do some more research and don't rely completely on the internet and forum posters as knowing the "correct" thing to do. Don't put your life in the hands of a random forum poster you've never met!!

A lot of the other posters on here seem great, this is mainly about Chapster.

[chopdoc]

On when to descend, Chaptser is correct. The Gliems Private Flight maneuvers and Pratcical Test Prep on pg 119, sec 3 para (a) states exactly what Chapster said, Abeam of the numbers start your descent while on the downwind leg. The ASA Visualized Flight Maneuvers handbook on page 40, Traffic patterns also says the same thing, abeam of the numbers, start your descent. When your abeam of the numbers for your intended landing runway your suppose to start a 400 to 500 descent. For a normal 1000ft AGL traffic pattern you should be around 700 on base and on glide slope on final. That is a text book approach.

[italy430]

I did some research about the FAA regs and US airspace and it seems that they do allow descents on the downwind leg. In Canada that is prohibited. I believe in most other countries that would be the case as well but I couldn't find any hard evidence of that. ICAO is the international standard (based in Montreal, Canada) and from what I know, international rules are the same as Canada's.

I still maintain my point of it being unsafe however. At the point which you say to descend, that is the exact point where you are no longer flying abeam the airport but you are flying AWAY from the airport. So to me, being at a low altitude of 1000AGL, slowing down, descending AND flying away from the airport is just ridiculous! What happens when your engine fails, I highly doubt you'd be able to make the field, unless your engine quit 2 sec after the abeam point. Among other reasons which I'll detail later.

What I was taught and what seems to be a very safe approach is that you slow down to your base speed just before you're ready to turn onto base. About 5kts before your base speed commence a turn onto base and begin a decent and your airspeed should go right to your base speed. This is obvs one method of doing it and I'm comfortable with this one. There are other ways of doing the turn onto base safely. Here is a diagram of how one school is teaching their students to do the traffic pattern.



This is a Canadian school btw.

Now the FAA does say that you can or should start your descent on the downwind leg. Here is an American pilot, Rod Machado, is a flight instructor, author, educator, and speaker. A pilot since 1970 and a CFI since 1973, he has flown more than 8,000 hours and is part owner of a Cessna P210. This is what Rod says, quoted directly, about descending on downwind:

The Airplane Flying Handbook suggests that you should begin your descent from traffic pattern altitude when abeam the approach end of the runway while on the downwind leg. Now, this is a fine procedure for making power-off accuracy landings and operating in a traffic pattern that's hosting one or two additional airplanes, at most. This may not, however, be the best procedure to use when operating at an airport that's even moderately busy, because it exposes you and others to unnecessary risk.

Here's another way to think about this issue. Descending on the downwind leg assumes that all traffic pattern variables are working for you, rather than against you. For instance, not everyone enters the pattern at the midfield point, nor do they enter at the recommended traffic pattern altitude. It's not unusual to find pilots entering downwind too low, too high, and/or too far into the downwind leg. A descent from abeam the runway threshold on the downwind leg increases your chance of descending onto one of these airplanes-or having one of them descend on you. Waiting until you turn base to descend provides you with an excellent opportunity to see and avoid any machine that's below you.

Descending on the downwind leg can also make it much more difficult for a following airplane to keep you in sight. Sure, there are many variables at play here, but it's hard to argue that airplanes descending directly ahead of you and dropping below the top of your panel makes them easier to see, right?

If there's an airplane ahead of you on base leg and you've just begun your downwind descent, you put yourself in a situation where you may (not always, but sometimes) have to maneuver at lower altitudes and even lower airspeeds farther from the runway to maintain your spacing. It's much better to be higher and doing S-turns with power reduced than doing S-turns at a lower altitude with power on. Think about it. You're low and slow and most likely beyond gliding distance from the runway. How can this possibly be advantageous to you?

Yes, each situation is different and needs to be sized up on its own merits, but generally speaking, your overall risk is increased by descending on the downwind leg compared to delaying the descent until turning base leg at the appropriate location.

I always have a lot of respect for the FAA's position on these issues. After all, they speak from many years of collective experience and we should consider their words carefully. But I'm not sure the recommendation to descend on the downwind leg was meant as a "one size fits all" solution, especially for moderately busy airports. Now you at least have another way of thinking about the issue.

Something as simple as descending a few hundred feet on the last segment of the downwind leg could set you up for a crash should your engine quit. As well as what Rod said above. Now with something as simple as that, I ask myself, why would I do that and just add more risk to my flight than needed?

I think most pilots here are American so I'd be interested in what you think about the Canadian rules which forbid you to descend on downwind as well as what Rod said.